ToThose who Feel we have ignored ideas.

[novanix]

My favorite quote so far
Originally Posted by Fuse
It just seems less and less that you guys are seriously considering some of the good (and balancing) suggestions that come along, and you seem to be getting more defensive and hostile as time goes on... That being said, many good and at the least tenable suggestions have been made about the things that the "community" here seems to have problems with, but you guys seem to either brush them off, or just dismiss them by vaguely restating your the reasons you want it your way.......

Which is quite offensive. I have spent hours apon hours of my time getting chats setup, begging people to give feedback, and trying to painfully respond to just about anything posted. We try and consider just about every idea we here, and rarely do I directly shoot something down. Often if an idea is posted it is my job to say why we are not doing it by default so that people can come back and say why it should still be considered. Doing this is meant to explain why we didn't originally do it (if we thought of it) and get you to put more thought into it and justify why it would be in it.

There are few things I can remember directly shooting down. The first example I would assume you were referring to was the filtering of laser turrets, and other limits and allowing them to be set by server administrators or mappers. As I explained then (and I thought in enough detail) if the gameplay changes from server to server or map to map too much then it will be very confusing to many ren players. As I mentioned in the thread we will definitely consider adding this in the next version of ren once there are more than enough ren servers so that we can allow filtering of what servers allow/disallow various things.

The other thing is obviously the removal of the sniper armor thread, and in there I have posted my reply.

If you feel there have been other things feel free to post them below and I shall respond.

[Byte]

I will follow this up as well with comments about shooting down ideas or removing things..

People need to realize this is a new engine with some new features, but as well, some removal of features that people came to know and love. If that is the case, then obviously we will try to explain it that way, but it doesn't always I, personally, will..

We've made some headway and done a few things which seemed like they might be impossible or extremely hard and well hard is an understatement, but in the end it will be worth it.

As new updates etc.. realize that the support level is there to add features or fix features, etc... so don't fret if something isnt added now or is put on back burner. Id like to get a release out when we can, thus the reason we have to deal with issues and try to make sure we don't keep adding more and more things....

or we'll never see a release :)

[Morgan19]

I have spent hours apon hours of my time getting chats setup, begging people to give feedback, and trying to painfully respond to just about anything posted. We try and consider just about every idea we here, and rarely do I directly shoot something down.

Perhaps I should clarify why I originally re-quoted that poster from the "sciper" thread. The problem I was referencing wasn't so much you, but unfortunately you seem to have taken that whole thread personally. It was more referencing Arcanox's very curt, very "this is what I think so suck it" replies in that same thread which, if you go back and read from a non-Ren-developer standpoint, do seem to have an awfully "I'm right, you're wrong" tact, especially with so many posts skillfully debating that keeping the two armors separate is a good thing, just to continue that example. It just seems a little strange that he'd so readily shoot ideas down, as you said, without really listening to all the completely valid logic behind it. Call it etiquette or manners or whatever you feel like, but his counter-replies just didn't come off as either professional or constructive. Seems like the forums would be an arena for fielding ideas, not just simply telling people that they're wrong...

We all understand the time and energy you're putting into this project, and believe me everyone's looking forward to it (myself included). I don't see why you should take so much offense to little (insignificant) comments as such, seeing as how it's all just criticism one way or the other. You're in the public eye, of course there are going to be hiccups, you have to expect it. So just take it for what it is, everyone's different opinions. And hopefully this will all just make Ren even better!

m19

[Arcanox]

Only in a perfect world could we please everyone without lifting a finger. The reality is that we've put in place this feature lock, and it seems to me that there are some people on both sides of the river on the issue. Some of them don't mind the combination of the Sniper and the Scout and some of them absolutely abhor it.

We're right in the middle and we're the judges of how our descisions sway. Right now we have a feature lock in place and we're not ready to sway from our plan so soon in the project.

You have to understand that we can't wait on every individuals wants and needs, but that doesn't mean we will not try to our best to please the masses. We're not making this mod for our personal satisfaction; it's for the community and new and potential newcomers to the mod.

Expressing your concern does have an effect on the dev team. Simply because we're not making a set in stone descision on it now does not mean it cannot be changed in the future. Neither does that imply that we have a set in stone descision in reference to our project plans. However we do have to make sure that our project plan does not deviate too much from our original descision.

Basically all I'm saying is that we're going to take what we have now and try it, and balance it. If it doesn't work, we will not push the issue off to the side and pass it off as complete. If changes NEED to be made, they WILL be made. Unfortunately we don't have some magical simulator to calculate the urgency of the issue. Everything so far on the communty's part and the development teams part is SPECULATION to the purest extent. We understand that, and we definately want you to understand that too.

[Mont]

I appreciate all the time and resources the team has invested in this project.


P.S. Thanks for the targeting laser :cool:
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[EasyTarget]

We're not making this mod for our personal satisfaction; it's for the community and new and potential newcomers to the mod.What armor did new players use the most? Do future players of the mod that they haven't played yet know to come to the renegades site and give their input? Did giving mercenary the ability to use the detpack create an inbalance? I hardly see an argument that combining the two armors would make it more popular and that combining them fixes some inbalance that existed with them separate. The case to keep them separate was brought up before the "feature lock" deadline, and if you think that there's an equal number of people on both sides of the argument then I think you've misread the posts. The only person I really see defending the idea is yourself.

I don't even play sniper armor, and most of the people I play with make fun of snipers, but we all know that the sniper armor help the mod grow and helps make it what it is. Maybe the mod you're working on can be a good mod without a sniper armor, but it'd be an even better one if we kept it. Without it I wouldn't even call it renegades.

What makes renegades, renegades? I'd say sniper armor, boosting mercs, engineers and defense, and a real cyborg.

[novanix]

First of all, many renwerx members may give their input, however just because a renwerx member disagrees with you doesn't mean it won't happen. In general most concept post our dev members make in these forums is treated to have equal value to just any public person posting(and should be treated that way). As the public face of Renegades when you say we arn't listening to ideas it is basically saying I am not doing all that I could be or even doing things wrong. Part of what I try to do is make sure everyones ideas get heard and considered.

As for the detpack to the merc, it already has been shifted back to a pack instead of the detpack beacons and allowing mercs to carry it is a one line code change so we can test that when it comes to beta and decide.

While it may appear I am the only one for combining the sniper and scout armors, that is definately not so. I was originally for keeping it seperate, and it was only after talking with people that I changed my mind. It is more complicated to have an 8th armor due to some gui constrictions but it isn't the end of the world. There seems to be two reasons you are pushing two seperate armors: A lot of what you are pushing for is simply the name of "Sniper Armor" not so much the belief in a seperate scout and sniping armors. As our combination doesn't really limit sniping at all, the only reason it wouldn't be some peoples favorite armor (scout) would be because they don't realize it is the new sniping armor.

The second reason is that there is the belief the sniper rifle with the Scout will make the scout too powerful.


I really think one of the best ways to solve the latter is to simply test it in beta and see.

As for the first one, making sure people realize the scout can sniper is something that requires more thought.

Either way the issue isn't a killer one that effects a ton of coding stuff, so we can work on a whole lot else before dealing with this.

I would also like to state that people need to be sure to keep an open mind to changes. The last thing we want is to cave in on something and go back to an old ren style when maybe it would actually take things to a new level if people adapted to it.

[EasyTarget]

but why are you guys so stuck on combining the sniper with scout? You say you've talked with lots of people who think its a good idea, but I don't see them posting and I didn't see them in the public chat log. If the need to get rid of an armor exists, mabye consider what chaospunk suggested and combine the scout and the spy since they both have similar roles somewhat. I know you listen to all the input provided and way it against everything else, you have lots of work to do on top of all that, and I really appreciate it, but from a coding standpoint I know that if you combine the armors now it'll be a lot harder to separate them later and it won't really be worth it later. I think it'd be easier to keep them separate now then combine them after we test it if people feel the need exists. I don't know that people thought the need existed in t2 and it didn't exist in t1, so why do it now? Maybe a good idea would be to recreate what worked well in other versions of renegades and then talk about the other changes and what not.

Again thanks for all the work and taking time out to listen and consider our suggestions.

[RWX-Priml1]

maybe it should be rephrased
we are dropping the scout armor or Merging it with the spy armor.
no matter how we put it scout is basicly gone.
the reason scout/sniper armor merge was used ws because cose wise and roles they was used in were basicly the same.
most who played scout did so because they did not know there was a sniper armor and the scout had the laser rifle (base sniper rifle)

history has shown us scout armor was the LEAST used armor of all armors.
top armors Used Merc , Cyborg , Sniper , Engineer , Alien , Burster , Spy , scout.
when i say least used i mean 1 guy once in every 300 maps played over the last 6 years used scout the other armors were used on EVERYMAP EVERYTME by multiple players.

the role it was designed for was never fullfilled.
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[Bomb_Expert]

"history has shown us scout armor was the LEAST used armor of all armors."

because it was never given anything strategically usefull in a pub or a match over using other available armors. Dont take it away, just give it a weapon or a beacon that makes it more competitive. It needs to be there, just revised. I know i have posted atleast 1 thing to change the scout. Merging the scout and spy armor is a mistake in my humble opinion.

-if you leave weapon slots open you can steal weapons your armor supports as well as ammo etc.
-the beam of the targeting laser(tool) should be invisable(except to other scouts, if you make the beacon or a tool or a equipable item an infra red goggle or something.)
-the dart rifle is a tracking device rather then a poison dart(scout type thing, for the scout only)
-the beacon is something other then a lame dep. sensor. Give it something useful in combat cause thats what the game is about or rather thats what people want to have to use with their armor(something particularly useful). Just things that the scout needs to give it a competitive edge over being a weak, easy kill, unimportant armor, or some n00b who doesnt know scout sucks and nobody uses it.

and above all things scout needs to be there to be the least used armor, if anything :)

[Bomb_Expert]

and....what happened to the sniper? i know people hate snipers but thats probably because they die from getting shot by them.......bring them back

[EasyTarget]

and above all things scout needs to be there to be the least used armor, if anythinglol

I understand that if that one extra armor creates a lot of coding problems that this is the easiest and maybe best solution. After all there's a lot of people waiting for the mod to come out and if having to deal with lots of other coding problems due to one armor, it may not be worth it.

But also let me say that the scout armor in t1 is very widely used. I'd say the alien or burster in t1 is the least used and the most used would be either the sniper or the enineer. (the better players usually go cyborg but you can tell what armor most people like in the weapons factory servers pretty easy)

If the coding mess/time restraints aren't really a big deal then maybe try to pattern the scout after the t1 scout. Its used all the time, mostly by good players who know how to use its speed. Get the d down then get in scout and cap as fast and as much as you can. The scout armor also makes for a very good dueling armor as it gives you a lot of control.

[Bomb_Expert]

i actually used scout in t1 ren, the boomstick was extremely affective indoors. I also used the scout in t2 ren for my personal amusment, it worked pretty good against borgs if you have a shield pack and whiteouts.

[Bomb_Expert]

if they brought back the scout grenades to their t1 strength people would use them to cap!!!!!!!

[-Ultima Weapon-]

RWX, you cant say noobs went to scout armor for the laser rifle, if they wanted to snipe im pretty sure they would have picked an armor that kinda implied that it would have the ability to snipe, i mean SNIPER. combining the two will just further confuse them and frushtrate us. and i agree with bomb, leave the scout alone and make him more powerful and useful, or if not that combine scout with spy.

[Bramage]

My two credits worth since this is an ongoing discussion.

Scout was rarely used in PUB games. Why?

1: Not many knew how to effectively use it.
2: T2 Scout was nerfed - Sorry it was.

I used the Scout extensively for capping and other roles during T1 Ren. The
Beacons were great to lay out a sensor perimeter fast for Defense to watch for incoming. The grenades didnt DO damage or very little damage to the scout when used. Also it was nimble and effective. I also used Scout extensively in DUAL.

In T2 the sensor deployment was good. The grenades HURT way too much to be useful. When you are losing over 1/2 your damage potential to a grenade that is just a concussion effect it is no longer useful. In T1 I used to cap a LOT with the scout. I could get to the other teams flag faster with a scout than a merc grab and return. The grenades and skiing properly were the trick.

If you folks revisted T2 Ren and dropped the damage that a scout recieves when using the concussion grenades and increased the force they expelled you would see a greater use of the scout. The other big problem and it was a good idea in general but again screwed the scout. Concussion grenades caused people to drop items including the flag. While in T1 this wasnt done as the concussion grenades were scout only.

The bottom line is whether an armor is used or not depends on 2 things.
1: The designers giving the armor something useful to do
2: The players figuring out new ways to use it.

I also find it a BIG mistake to give the Detpack to the Merc AGAIN. That was one of the biggest reason Constant Detpacking was a pain in the ass. Any Llama could do it and it was an endless supply with a remote inventory. Wave after wave of merc detting.

T1 was better with the Burster being the only one to carry a det pack. Big, Obvious and able to be sniped by an Engineer when incoming.

Go back and play T1 Ren for awhile and see what was fun and good about it. Play T2 again and see what changed and what felt wrong. Then after the first beta of Vengeance Ren see how things go.

Bramage

[skione]

I appreciate all the time and resources the team has invested in this project.


P.S. Thanks for the targeting laser :cool:


Ditto!

Renwerx team: Please do not get too huffy about the nay sayers. I always thought you guys did a great job and most of us truly appreciate the sefless job you guys do. There are always going to be a few ppl who will rub you the wrong way.

[Rooster128]

Random facts that everyone should know: I am god, and James Bond is Jesus, and tomatoes offer an efficientally large amount of lycopene. :-D

[Solarius]

Just rename the scout armor, sniper armor by default. In T2 the scout armor was what you spawned in, and that was it. You ALWAYS change out of it.. unless you didn't know how, or couldn't. ( or you just did a lame shrike, boost, flag throw, suicide, catch ) :)

Edit:
Also, as for Merc detting, I know it was a pain in T2 but you need to leave that in. Having your base constantly/repeatedly raped when you're on a sub-standard team is demoralizing enough without removing our ability to kill borgs. A base scout should never be able to kill anyone with enough experience to just be able to install ren and equip the borg armor. (although in T:V base I find it easier to kill heavies in Light then anything else) Maybe make det packs so that they won't work unless you're within the range of your sensor (on or off). That way there will be no offensive detting which shouldn't be needed if you can't cage the flag with ff's.

[Bomb_Expert]

Just rename the scout armor, sniper armor by default. In T2 the scout armor was what you spawned in, and that was it. You ALWAYS change out of it..:)


You didnt spawn in a light armor(scout) in t2 ren.

The scout can be revived, it just needs to be given something that makes people want to use it. I totally agree with bramage, the t2 scout was nerfed, if your looking for a reason why nobody used it, it was because it sucked in pubs and it sucked in matches, youd be better off with a detpack and trippleboosts. One way i would like to see the mod changed is to make the scout as strategically viable as the spy(both with important roles).

[RWX-Priml1]

In T2 the sensor deployment was good. The grenades HURT way too much to be useful. When you are losing over 1/2 your damage potential to a grenade that is just a concussion effect it is no longer useful. In T1 I used to cap a LOT with the scout. I could get to the other teams flag faster with a scout than a merc grab and return. The grenades and skiing properly were the trick.

If you folks revisted T2 Ren and dropped the damage that a scout recieves when using the concussion grenades and increased the force they expelled you would see a greater use of the scout. The other big problem and it was a good idea in general but again screwed the scout. Concussion grenades caused people to drop items including the flag. While in T1 this wasnt done as the concussion grenades were scout only.
Bramage
T2 ren the scout had its own special conc nade which did not knock weapons away or cause as much damage. the scout nade had twice the force of a normal conc nade to propel the scout like a shockwave cannon would of.

what people are arguing about is a name "sniper armor" the same load outs are available the same role can be fullfilled does it realy matter what name it is called?

we (Renwerx) have said from the begining this will not be a exact copy of T1 or T2 ren like T:V is not t1 or t2 we are trying to bring back the best of T1 and T2 ren that we can and try some new stuff.
i do not play t1 or t2 anymore because after so many years i got burnt out the same old maps the same old tatics the same old people. the games had become stagnit nothing new everyone uses the same old routes the same defences etc...
when it got to the point i knew by who was on the server and who was on what teams which team was going to win the excitment was gone.

to me some new stuff will shake things up a bit keep things fresh for a cple years hopefully.
back to my point
as long as the same role can befullfilled why are we arguing over a name?
hell lets call it the "chiefredcrow' armor means basicly the same thing as sniper armor.

t2 ren sniper armor had
sniper rifle
deployable sensorjammer for beacon

scout armor had
scout nade
deployable pulse sensor for beacon
stole random ammo from the enemy he bumped into.
not shure every one knew about that lil feature.

i wont mention t1 ren because it was a long long time since i have played it and i never messed with the code for t1 ren.
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[RWX-Priml1]

I also find it a BIG mistake to give the Detpack to the Merc AGAIN. That was one of the biggest reason Constant Detpacking was a pain in the ass. Any Llama could do it and it was an endless supply with a remote inventory. Wave after wave of merc detting.

T1 was better with the Burster being the only one to carry a det pack. Big, Obvious and able to be sniped by an Engineer when incoming.
Bramage

um where do you get the info merc armor will have detpacks again?
the Ravager aka Burster (http://renwerx.com/armors.cgi) aka what ever it is being called this week Armor is the ONLY armor that will have the detpack
we do not wish to see the detpackwars comeback again ourselves.
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[Bramage]

Novanix1 on page 1



As for the detpack to the merc, it already has been shifted back to a pack instead of the detpack beacons and allowing mercs to carry it is a one line code change so we can test that when it comes to beta and decide.



This sounds like the Merc is going to have a Detpack Pack.

Bramage

[Fuse]

Perhaps I should clarify why I originally re-quoted that poster from the "sciper" thread. The problem I was referencing wasn't so much you, but unfortunately you seem to have taken that whole thread personally. It was more referencing Arcanox's very curt, very "this is what I think so suck it" replies in that same thread which, if you go back and read from a non-Ren-developer standpoint, do seem to have an awfully "I'm right, you're wrong" tact, especially with so many posts skillfully debating that keeping the two armors separate is a good thing, just to continue that example. It just seems a little strange that he'd so readily shoot ideas down, as you said, without really listening to all the completely valid logic behind it. Call it etiquette or manners or whatever you feel like, but his counter-replies just didn't come off as either professional or constructive. Seems like the forums would be an arena for fielding ideas, not just simply telling people that they're wrong...
In responding to your initial quote at the beginning of this thread, Novanix, I couldnt have said things better than this. This is exactly why I said what I said.

[-CPL-]

maybe it should be rephrased
we are dropping the scout armor or Merging it with the spy armor.
no matter how we put it scout is basicly gone.
the reason scout/sniper armor merge was used ws because cose wise and roles they was used in were basicly the same.
most who played scout did so because they did not know there was a sniper armor and the scout had the laser rifle (base sniper rifle)

history has shown us scout armor was the LEAST used armor of all armors.
top armors Used Merc , Cyborg , Sniper , Engineer , Alien , Burster , Spy , scout.
when i say least used i mean 1 guy once in every 300 maps played over the last 6 years used scout the other armors were used on EVERYMAP EVERYTME by multiple players.

the role it was designed for was never fullfilled.

you forgot about the juggernaught, which was left in and selectable for some unknown reason.

[-CPL-]

Novanix1 on page 1

This sounds like the Merc is going to have a Detpack Pack.

Bramage

tears begin for Bramage.

[-CPL-]

hell lets call it the "chiefredcrow' armor means basicly the same thing as sniper armor.


that owns, and he would appreciate the comment. He was king of all snipers. Regardless of what you all say.

However, people brag and boast... NEW THREAD

[Fuse]

Priml, you can solve the problem about the scout one of two ways. You can merge it with the sniper and take away many possible options and choices from the players, or you can simply make the scout armor useful. It isnt that hard to change it and make sure it is useful this time around, and it would add much more depth and many more choices if you did. Leaving them split would simply make a better game.

[got_hp?]

sounds like you could have avoided this entire annoying debate if you just made this the "sniper" armor, and said you were merging in some of the scout features.

it seems people are just complaining about the name, and not realizing its gonna basically do the same damn thing.

[-Ultima Weapon-]

no, its not. it will be able to cap with a sniper rifle, which would not make it easy for chasers, i think they said it only has 2 weapon slots, when the sniper should have 3. i think there is more, but i dont remember anything

[EasyTarget]

that's the whole problem it seems, some people think the scout and sniper were already the same thing while others of us think that they had completely different roles.

but I think they're considering the suggestion of chaospunk now (if I read Priml1's posts correctly), about merging the scout and spy armor. I see that as a much better idea since having 8 armors may slow down the coding a lot because they'll have to deal with some gui issues and since the scout and spy are a lot more similar in function than the scout and the sniper. (Ideally it'd be nice to have all 8, but maybe the mod will come out faster with 7 and then they can work on adding/changing the other stuff after)